I hadn't heard of Joe Armstrong before, although I knew of Erlang. Armstrong is clearly the real deal, the sort of coder I recognize and can tell almost instantly when I'm around them. It can be hard to read an interview with such a person, because when you see their words in print, you think, ouch!
I used to read programs and think, "Why are they writing it this way; this is very complicated," and I'd just rewrite them to simplify them. It used to strike me as strange that people wrote complicated programs. I could see how to do things in a few lines and they'd written tens of lines and I'd sort of wonder why they didn't see the simple way. I got quite good at that.
I know this feeling; I have this feeling all the time; I'm very familiar with this feeling.
The danger, of course, is that what you think of as "the simple way" may be perhaps too simple, or may miss some property of the problem under study which was apparent to the original author but not to the next reader. This urge to re-write is incredibly strong, though, and while I was reading the interview with Armstrong I was instantly reminded of a saying that was prevalent two decades ago, and which I think is attributed to Michael Stonebraker: "pissing on the code". Stonebraker was describing a behavior that he observed during the research projects at UC Berkeley, during which, from time to time, one student would leave the project and another student would join the project to replace the first. Inevitably, the new student would decide that the prior student's work wasn't up to par, and would embark on an effort to re-write the code, a cycle of revision which came to be compared to the way that dogs mark their territory.
As I was reading the Armstrong interview, I couldn't really decide if he was pulling our legs or not:
If you haven't got a directory system and you have to put all the files in one directory, you have to be fairly disciplined. If you haven't got a revision control system, you have to be fairly disciplined. Given that you apply that discipline to what you're doing it doesn't seem to me to be any better to have hierarchical file systems and revision control. They don't solve the fundamental problem of solving your problem. They probably make it easier for groups of people to work together. For individuals I don't see any difference.
Is he serious? He doesn't see any difference? It's hard to believe.
His primitivistic approach seems almost boundless:
I said, "What's that for? You don't use it." He said, "I know. Reserved for future expansion." So I removed that.
I would write a specific algorithm removing all things that were not necessary for this program. Whenever I got the program, it became shorter as it became more specific.
This, too, is an emotion I know well; people who know me know that I rail against the unneeded and unnecessary in software, as I find that complexity breeds failure; it results in lower developer productivity, and in lower performance, harder to use, buggier software. There's a famous story which is retold in one of the old books describing the joint development of OS/2 by Microsoft and IBM, about how the software management at IBM was obsessed with measuring productivity by counting the lines of code, and how the Microsoft engineers kept "messing up" the schedule by re-writing bits of IBM-written code in fewer lines, thus causing the graphs to show a negative slope and alarm bells to ring.
Many parts of the Armstrong interview definitely ring true, such as the observation that programming is a skill which can be improved by practice, almost to the point of being an addiction:
The really good programmers spend a lot of time programming. I haven't seen very good programmers who don't spend a lot of time programming. If I don't program for two or three days, I need to do it.
As well as his observation on the value of describing what a program is supposed to do:
I quite like a specification. I think it's unprofessional these people who say, "What does it do? Read the code." The code shows me what it does. It doesn't show me what it's supposed to do.
However I ended up feeling about the Amstrong interview, one thing is for sure: it was not boring!
I found the Peyton Jones interview much less gripping. Again, I had heard of Haskell, the language that Peyton Jones is associated with, but I hadn't heard much about Peyton Jones himself. I'd say that Peyton Jones is not really a coder; rather, he is a professor, a teacher, a researcher:
I write some code every day. It's not actually every day, but that's my mantra. I think there's this horrible danger that people who are any good at anything get promoted or become more important until they don't get to do the thing they're any good at anymore. So one of the things I like about working here and working in research generally is that I can still work on the compiler that I've been working on since 1990.
How much code do I write? Some days I spend the whole day programming, actually staring at code. Other days, none. So maybe, on average, a couple hours a day, certainly.
It's like he's a researcher who wants to be a coder, but also wants to be a researcher. But I suspect that what he really wants to be is a teacher:
I have a paper about how to write a good paper or give a good research talk and one of the high-order bits is, don't describe an artifact. An artifact is an implementation of an idea. What is the idea, the reusable brain-thing that you're trying to transfer into the minds of your listeners? There's something that's useful to them. It's the business of academics, I think, to abstract reusable ideas from concrete artifacts.
I think that's a great description; I suspect that if you flip it around, it's not a bad description of coders: "to implement concrete artifacts from abstract reusable ideas".
I went into both the Armstrong and Peyton Jones interviews thinking, "Oh, I know these guys! This is the guy that did language X; perhaps I will learn something about language X, or about why this guy's life led him to invent language X." Unfortunately, neither interview did that, perhaps because those stories have been told sufficiently many times elsewhere.
I'm still interested in Erlang, and in Haskell, and hopefully someday I will find the time to study them more. But these interviews were not the springboard to that activity.